I don’t mean to be only negative. There are great things about places like the USSR, China, Cuba, and probably North Korea too. However, I think that is due to the benefits of Platonic Aristocracy, not Socialism.
It reeks of chauvanism
You keep saying that I can’t expect non-western countries to have “western” democracy. It sounds like you’re saying only white people can have democracy. While there are plenty of non-western liberal democracies, I agree with the criticism that they aren’t that democratic. I would look to more radical forms, like DAANES, and urge the continued research into possible undiscovered strategies.
and “left” anti-communism.
I didn’t realize Lemmy was so anti-left.
parties should be able to expel corrupt or poorly-performing members. You can’t have your cake and eat it here too, either parties have to be open and thus vulnerable to the corruption you keep hinting that they may have, or they need mechanisms for preventing such problems and dealing with them as they arise. Again, “left” anti-communism.
This is why you kept getting quoted Gramsci’s teardown of Bordiga
I’d never read Bordiga’s writings before, but I find his critique insightful:
The same process will take place in Italy as in other capitalist countries. Against the advance of the working class, a coalition of all the reactionary elements will form, from the fascists to the Popular Party and the socialists: actually, the socialists will become the vanguard of the anti-proletarian reaction because they know best the weaknesses of the working class.
That is exactly what happened. Mussolini himself was originally a socialist, and members of the Popular Party joined his government.
If there were a bunch of anti-slavery memes, would having a pro-slavery meme be justified in the name of “balance?”
The pro-DPRK memes aren’t anti-slavery, they are pro-slavery.
your critique is “sterile and negative,” it offers no solutions and only spreads doubt and division.
Challenge accepted, I will try to make a meme that offers solutions, and I expect no negativity in response, as that isn’t comradely.
Read…what pro-socialist groups are saying.
Pro-socialist, or pro-DPRK? If a group is critical of the DPRK do you consider it to be not socialist?
The problem here is that you are assuming the opposite, that a socialist state is anti-democratic and is oppressing its citizens for no reason.
Making a democratic state is hard. All the (limited, biased) evidence points toward an oppressive state in North Korea. Forgive me if I suspect there might be some grain of truth in it.
I understand what control is, I have yet to see you make a compelling argument for why we should abandon the Marxist understanding of class. You kept trying to invent the idea of an administrator class, but experience shows that the Marxist understanding of class is correct, that the state is representative of the ruling class in society, and not outside of that.
It is such a great tragedy that Marx never finished “The State”. So many Marxists’ understanding of political power is skin-deep.
You keep saying that I can’t expect non-western countries to have “western” democracy. It sounds like you’re saying only white people can have democracy.
You have to be a troll. Western democracy is democracy in the loosest sense to keep acting like it’s the only valid form of democracy is ridiculous. I hope you eventually grow up.
There is only so much room on the canvas, but Chongsanri and Taean seem to be based on similar principles as the rest of the government.
Sure, the DPRK’s system of democracy applies to much more than administration alone.
I don’t mean to be only negative. There are great things about places like the USSR, China, Cuba, and probably North Korea too. However, I think that is due to the benefits of Platonic Aristocracy, not Socialism.
This is phrasemongering. Again, sterile and negative, endless gesturing and no clear points. Socialism is not some holy state of being, it’s a concrete form of society where the working classes control the state and public ownership is the principal aspect of the economy. All of that applies to the listed states, while aristocracy applies to none.
You keep saying that I can’t expect non-western countries to have “western” democracy. It sounds like you’re saying only white people can have democracy. While there are plenty of non-western liberal democracies, I agree with the criticism that they aren’t that democratic. I would look to more radical forms, like DAANES, and urge the continued research into possible undiscovered strategies.
I don’t keep saying that, actually. I have explained the difference between socialist democracy and liberal democracy, and the importance of consultative democracy. You picking DAANES as an example of what you would support just furthers this chauvanist viewpoint, treating structures that arise from socialists organizing in their own conditions and thinking you can just copy and paste to wildly different conditions. Again, you let the fact that the DPRK’s democracy doesn’t fit your individual preferences stand in the way of supporting the right of the DPRK to determine its own democratic structures based on their own conditions.
I didn’t realize Lemmy was so anti-left.
This is a cheap retort, not a real point. Marxists have attacked ultraleft dogmatists since Marx, it’s not the leftism that’s the problem, it’s the anti-communism using “left” sounding arguments, your habit of letting your fantasy socialism stand in the way of those concretely building real socialism.
I’d never read Bordiga’s writings before, but I find his critique insightful:
This is not the point that was discussed, you dodged the point to talk about something irrelevant. Nobody is saying that absolutely everything Bordiga ever wrote was wrong, but instead that he was more of a metaphysician and an idealist, and as such his analysis was closer to that of a liberal, against real progressive movements and arresting the movement of socialists in the west.
The pro-DPRK memes aren’t anti-slavery, they are pro-slavery.
This is both a non-sequitor and is bullshit. I used the slavery point as an analogy to prove why “balance” is unnecessary, and as I explained the DPRK has no slavery. Universal conscription is not slavery.
Challenge accepted, I will try to make a meme that offers solutions, and I expect no negativity in response, as that isn’t comradely.
The merit of whatever you post will be judged on its own merits, the fact that this post is highly flawed for one set of reasons does not mean a different post would not have other flaws.
Pro-socialist, or pro-DPRK? If a group is critical of the DPRK do you consider it to be not socialist?
Depends, really, but I have found the DPRK to be a great litmus test for judging how serious a socialist org is.
Making a democratic state is hard. All the (limited, biased) evidence points toward an oppressive state in North Korea. Forgive me if I suspect there might be some grain of truth in it.
This isn’t true, though. All of the legitimate evidence points towards a state governed by the working classes working in their collective interests.
It is such a great tragedy that Marx never finished “The State”. So many Marxists’ understanding of political power is skin-deep.
Vagueposting is worthless. Make a real point, don’t try to justify your anti-Marxist position on class and the state by invoking Marx. You didn’t even quotefarm Marx for this one, you just implied that what he may have written may have disagreed with his own positions and agreed with yours. This isn’t an argument.
There is only so much room on the canvas, but Chongsanri and Taean seem to be based on similar principles as the rest of the government.
I don’t mean to be only negative. There are great things about places like the USSR, China, Cuba, and probably North Korea too. However, I think that is due to the benefits of Platonic Aristocracy, not Socialism.
You keep saying that I can’t expect non-western countries to have “western” democracy. It sounds like you’re saying only white people can have democracy. While there are plenty of non-western liberal democracies, I agree with the criticism that they aren’t that democratic. I would look to more radical forms, like DAANES, and urge the continued research into possible undiscovered strategies.
I didn’t realize Lemmy was so anti-left.
I’d never read Bordiga’s writings before, but I find his critique insightful:
That is exactly what happened. Mussolini himself was originally a socialist, and members of the Popular Party joined his government.
The pro-DPRK memes aren’t anti-slavery, they are pro-slavery.
Challenge accepted, I will try to make a meme that offers solutions, and I expect no negativity in response, as that isn’t comradely.
Pro-socialist, or pro-DPRK? If a group is critical of the DPRK do you consider it to be not socialist?
Making a democratic state is hard. All the (limited, biased) evidence points toward an oppressive state in North Korea. Forgive me if I suspect there might be some grain of truth in it.
It is such a great tragedy that Marx never finished “The State”. So many Marxists’ understanding of political power is skin-deep.
Just want to point out that Mussolini was an anarchist, and he was considered an opportunist by many before he swapt sides.
You have to be a troll. Western democracy is democracy in the loosest sense to keep acting like it’s the only valid form of democracy is ridiculous. I hope you eventually grow up.
Accusing me of being a troll while excluding the next sentence.
This one? “Oh other forms of democracy exist but they’re not real democracy”.
It is trollish to interpret that as me claiming the only valid for of democracy is western democracy.
It’s the negative space outlined by everything else you’re saying
Is it? It seems like the exact read anyone would have of what you’ve said.
Sure, the DPRK’s system of democracy applies to much more than administration alone.
This is phrasemongering. Again, sterile and negative, endless gesturing and no clear points. Socialism is not some holy state of being, it’s a concrete form of society where the working classes control the state and public ownership is the principal aspect of the economy. All of that applies to the listed states, while aristocracy applies to none.
I don’t keep saying that, actually. I have explained the difference between socialist democracy and liberal democracy, and the importance of consultative democracy. You picking DAANES as an example of what you would support just furthers this chauvanist viewpoint, treating structures that arise from socialists organizing in their own conditions and thinking you can just copy and paste to wildly different conditions. Again, you let the fact that the DPRK’s democracy doesn’t fit your individual preferences stand in the way of supporting the right of the DPRK to determine its own democratic structures based on their own conditions.
This is a cheap retort, not a real point. Marxists have attacked ultraleft dogmatists since Marx, it’s not the leftism that’s the problem, it’s the anti-communism using “left” sounding arguments, your habit of letting your fantasy socialism stand in the way of those concretely building real socialism.
This is not the point that was discussed, you dodged the point to talk about something irrelevant. Nobody is saying that absolutely everything Bordiga ever wrote was wrong, but instead that he was more of a metaphysician and an idealist, and as such his analysis was closer to that of a liberal, against real progressive movements and arresting the movement of socialists in the west.
This is both a non-sequitor and is bullshit. I used the slavery point as an analogy to prove why “balance” is unnecessary, and as I explained the DPRK has no slavery. Universal conscription is not slavery.
The merit of whatever you post will be judged on its own merits, the fact that this post is highly flawed for one set of reasons does not mean a different post would not have other flaws.
Depends, really, but I have found the DPRK to be a great litmus test for judging how serious a socialist org is.
This isn’t true, though. All of the legitimate evidence points towards a state governed by the working classes working in their collective interests.
Vagueposting is worthless. Make a real point, don’t try to justify your anti-Marxist position on class and the state by invoking Marx. You didn’t even quotefarm Marx for this one, you just implied that what he may have written may have disagreed with his own positions and agreed with yours. This isn’t an argument.