It is trollish to interpret that as me claiming the only valid for of democracy is western democracy.

Accusing me of being a troll while excluding the next sentence.

It really doesn’t need to be a contest between those two.

you’re not even factoring in the taean system at the factory level.

There is only so much room on the canvas, but Chongsanri and Taean seem to be based on similar principles as the rest of the government.

permanently negative, endlessly “skeptical” stance

I don’t mean to be only negative. There are great things about places like the USSR, China, Cuba, and probably North Korea too. However, I think that is due to the benefits of Platonic Aristocracy, not Socialism.

It reeks of chauvanism

You keep saying that I can’t expect non-western countries to have “western” democracy. It sounds like you’re saying only white people can have democracy. While there are plenty of non-western liberal democracies, I agree with the criticism that they aren’t that democratic. I would look to more radical forms, like DAANES, and urge the continued research into possible undiscovered strategies.

and “left” anti-communism.

I didn’t realize Lemmy was so anti-left.

parties should be able to expel corrupt or poorly-performing members. You can’t have your cake and eat it here too, either parties have to be open and thus vulnerable to the corruption you keep hinting that they may have, or they need mechanisms for preventing such problems and dealing with them as they arise. Again, “left” anti-communism.

This is why you kept getting quoted Gramsci’s teardown of Bordiga

I’d never read Bordiga’s writings before, but I find his critique insightful:

The same process will take place in Italy as in other capitalist countries. Against the advance of the working class, a coalition of all the reactionary elements will form, from the fascists to the Popular Party and the socialists: actually, the socialists will become the vanguard of the anti-proletarian reaction because they know best the weaknesses of the working class.

That is exactly what happened. Mussolini himself was originally a socialist, and members of the Popular Party joined his government.

If there were a bunch of anti-slavery memes, would having a pro-slavery meme be justified in the name of “balance?”

The pro-DPRK memes aren’t anti-slavery, they are pro-slavery.

your critique is “sterile and negative,” it offers no solutions and only spreads doubt and division.

Challenge accepted, I will try to make a meme that offers solutions, and I expect no negativity in response, as that isn’t comradely.

Read…what pro-socialist groups are saying.

Pro-socialist, or pro-DPRK? If a group is critical of the DPRK do you consider it to be not socialist?

The problem here is that you are assuming the opposite, that a socialist state is anti-democratic and is oppressing its citizens for no reason.

Making a democratic state is hard. All the (limited, biased) evidence points toward an oppressive state in North Korea. Forgive me if I suspect there might be some grain of truth in it.

I understand what control is, I have yet to see you make a compelling argument for why we should abandon the Marxist understanding of class. You kept trying to invent the idea of an administrator class, but experience shows that the Marxist understanding of class is correct, that the state is representative of the ruling class in society, and not outside of that.

It is such a great tragedy that Marx never finished “The State”. So many Marxists’ understanding of political power is skin-deep.

The US is not famous for the integrity of it’s democracy, but almost anything is better than this.

The image is misleading, but the CPC itself acknowledged at least 241 deaths. Also, you cannot find information about the incident while in China. Can personally confirm.

Yea, candidates are generally chosen from a broader group than this implies

Candidates can be selected from non-party members, but they are absolutely selected by the party members, and after nomination are assigned a party.

your meme puts a negative twist on literally every aspect for no reason whatsoever.

The reason is humor. That, and I feel negatively.

membership of political parties isn’t private and locked down, you can join political parties.

You can join any political party you want in the same sense that you can work for any company you want in a Bourgeois society. That is, you can join if they want you to.

I don’t know what your deal is,

My deal is that I’m interested in how a bunch of Communists convinced themselves to support undemocratic political structures. I have read some Lenin and Mao, but its not the same as engaging with people who really believe in it. We’re all people, and ones with ostensibly similar political aims, and yet we came to such different conclusions.

you keep making vaguely targeted memes

there have recently been so many pro-DPRK memes, will you not begrudge me a few critical memes?

after getting called out for the same error of taking your personal fears of mishandling and turning them into percieved reality.

From where am I to learn about “reality”? Not personal testimony, not by reading legal documents, not by thinking about the consequences of consolidated political power? Am I to assume that a state doesn’t oppress its citizens and is democratic merely because it purports to be inspired by the teachings of Karl Marx?

Same with your repeated idea of a “political class,” where you erase the concept of class as it relates to ownership of the means of production and twist it into meaning “type of job.”

Either you do not understand what control is, or you refuse to acknowledge a class not mentioned in the writings of Friedrich Engels.

Copying over a comment I gave for you

Yes, I read the book. Thank you. It was a little out of date, but overall informative.

you assume a priori that it isn’t

I’m open to the idea that is is, but all the evidence I’ve seen this far indicates that it isn’t, and no one has given evidence that it is

I will postpone further judgement until having read it

The working classes control the state

Do you mean (1) that the collective will of the working class directs the behavior of the state, or (2) that managers of the state are members of the working class?

The classes in power in the DPRK are the working classes

Whether this is true is really what I’m trying to determine, and currently skeptical of. I guess it may be difficult to prove or disprove. It sounds like you think the class identity of the administration is enough to say so, but I could be wrong. I don’t see that as sufficient.

regular strawmanning and misframing

I may have misrepresented your or others’ perspectives, but if so it was not intentional.

The problem rests on your belief that you know better than the millions of people in the DPRK

That’s only true if you assume the government is actually a representation of the will of the people of the DPRK. How am I supposed to know whether that’s true other than by evaluating the quality of their democratic system?

Though you maintain a polite tone, your actual actions speak against that

What actions have I taken that are upsetting?

The only real resource on democracy you provided is the Roland Boer book, which looks interesting, and which I got a copy of and intend to read. However, a committee-based democracy with a ban on antagonistic propaganda does not sound promising.

Universal conscription, and the prevention of treason, are both decisions not imposed on the people from above

Do you have any real reason to believe that other than the equivalent of a pinky-swear from the government?

support decolonization of Korea and an end to sanctions

I generally support that for all countries

you never really gave an example of real mistreatment beyond universal conscription in a time of war.

That’s plenty for me. Also preventing asylum, which was never denied. There are also loads of reports of other mistreatment, but it is difficult to find a neutral source for those. That’s why I went to the law document, which is their own government’s statements about what is illegal and how it will be punished, which in addition to confirming the previously mentioned issues, appears to explicitly limit dissent.

Edit: I do appreciate the sources and information you and others have provided. I do not intend to imply that you did not answer my questions.

I hope it doesn’t come across as mean, as I have enjoyed some of your thoughtful discourse, but that is more or less how you come across.

The DPRK has the working classes in charge of the state, with public ownership as the principal aspect of the economy. As long as these remain true, and there are no underlying problems of the character that can overturn those, simply continuing to develop industry and infrastructure is working towards communism.

[your concerns are] either sensible given the DPRK’s existence as a country in siege, or is a misunderstanding on your own part, a misunderstanding that can be alleviated through study.

• Cowbee

trolling is unbecoming once you mature past 12.

Excellent point, Qin Shi Huang’s Shlong

obviously you can’t move to a hostile power during wartime that’s called defecting.

I’m not trolling. This is what people claim when they say people can’t leave the country. Debunking this claim without acknowledging that the core idea is true is dishonest.

No country on Earth currently or has ever allowed that.

I am pretty sure that people traveled between the US and the USSR in both directions during the cold war. Indians and Pakistanis can travel back and forth. Heck, Americans can go to Iran right now if they can figure out a way to.

The core question isn’t whether they can study in China, it is whether they can freely cross the border into South Korea to seek asylum.

Look, even if it doesn’t apply to reserve force members, the claim that North Koreans are free to leave the country is at best misleading if they have to wait until they are 30 years old.