I wish to have a discussion about how physical surveillance affects you in your day-to-day life; apart from Flock and (Ring) doorbell cameras (which I believe are pretty established at this point). This in context with your country of residence, and whether in a rural or densely populated area (as (“smart”) cities typically “progress” at a faster rate).
I live in a medium-sized village, in a low-density area of The Netherlands. I rarely travel long distances and visit cities, but despite that, I’m increasingly confronted with surveillance infrastructure. Maybe it’s because I know too much about it, and I no longer have the option to be unaware of it, but it eats at me on a daily basis.
Most notable is surveillance surrounding highways, especially: the increased density of radar sensors (which, on their own, might not reveal much about individuals; but could reveal one’s progression when paired to ALPR data, for instance), “focusflitsers” (a (mobile) array of thermal-imaging cameras: peering through a vehicle’s windshield, supposedly patrolling phone-usage during driving, but also featuring an ALPR (which also captures the driver, besides the license plate of course), and may also be used to record speed-indications (to identify “verkeershufters”: roughly translating to “traffic jerks”)), dedicated (mobile or stationary) ALPR cameras (supposedly only for detecting warranted vehicles or “hits”: unless published in the police’s “cameraplan”), “trajectcontroles” (average speed monitoring: essentially two sets of ALPRs, calculating the average time between readings), and (now) digital speed cameras (typically at intersections: instead of adapting road design…). But I’m glad I trust my government to only store “hits” and those in violation… /s
Other than that, I’ve spotted ALPRs (alongside an increasing number of PTZ cameras) at gas stations and above infrastructure (like bridges), but also built within boom gates before parking areas or recycling centers (behind a little square of darkened glass: in the base of the gate); and in, and surrounding retail areas (especially supermarkets) the number of cameras have risen (including the cameras at the self-checkout lanes: staring customers straight in the face; supposedly to discourage theft, but considering the “pay by face” concept, I fear it’s in preparation thereof). Buses, structurally driving through my street, also have (exterior) camera side-mirrors, and therefore frequently capture me. And finally the eyesore that is public-facing home-surveillance systems (despite legally not allowed to, but of course not actively being enforced: as the government would shoot itself in the foot if it did).
That was my little rant, please feel free to leave yours below in the comments; I’m somewhat desperate to hear it. I’m especially interested in stories from Denmark: as even my mom (despite of the “I’ve got nothing to hide” type) noticed “average speed monitoring” cameras all throughout the country, and “speed cameras” being at the entrance of villages (which I believe you aren’t allowed to be notified about in navigation programs: which is also insane to me), when she was there on a holiday. Please be very critical of every camera you’re confronted with, including those that appear to have been there for your entire life. It’s safe to assume every camera (including old “analog” cameras: through encoders) feed back into modern, digital surveillance platforms: which allow the footage to be actively monitored by AI (often to potentially trigger an alert, which an operator could respond to), possibly retained for an extended period of time (especially when considered evidence, it may be stored long-term: on a centralized server and/or cloud storage), and is shared effortlessly over the internet (instead of requiring physical transfer).
Doesn’t
I’m a politically active anarchist (Boston US). The extent of my political activities is giving food to people, but the cameras have completely changed my threat model.
Under current directives, the FBI considers me a domestic terrorist and violent extremist because I am trans and against fascism (not because of my actions – I am not violent). Legally they can’t just randomly arrest me because of our right to free speech, but they can arrest me for something entirely unrelated and punish me disproportionally, so the cameras have changed the way I act in the city and online. I am now much more cautious about everything; I worry about simply putting a “scam” sticker over somebody else’s sticker promoting a scam. I am constantly aware of law enforcement around me. I scan my surroundings regularly to make an updated escape plan. I notice every person walking down the street I’m on. I carry a knife and pepper spray. I regularly ask myself what would happen if a cop pulled me over / stopped me at this moment, and am well aware of the varying rights and legal obligations in those situations.
It’s not possible to avoid the cameras when driving, so I can’t just change my route. I have to simply accept the fact that they know my routine and location and they know what I do day-to-day. I am very careful about what I say both online and in person so as to not appear like I might ever do anything beyond giving food to people and broadly complaining.
And the worst part is that I’m just a 19 year old who has big ideas but won’t do any harm. I just so happen to be several minorities, so the stakes are much higher
You may be fined €140 if they catch you placing a sticker outside of designated areas over here, and modern cameras are great at detecting objects being left behind (your sticker being left on scene after you leave); so yes, that seems like a reasonable concern (especially alongside political tensions). And considering you’re from the US, I assume traffic cameras are Flock ALPRs? But yeah, being privacy conscious is increasingly at the cost of being able to express, or even simply to be; and it’s sad it’s something to worry about.
I’m in the Netherlands right now. You may have a different perspective if you’re a car owner, but I really noticed I’m not being spied on as much. I believe it’s not really allowed for a private person to film a public street neither, and I simply don’t see any cameras.
I live in Prague. When I go for a walk there, there’s hundreds of cameras following me. It’s like every home has at least one camera and they’re not just filming their own property. It feels uncomfortable: you never know who’s watching or what’s done with the footage.
Surveillance surrounding car infrastructure is the most notable currently, but every larger public transportation hub has cameras all over too, together with on-board cameras in pubic transit vehicles, which are monitored in real time (despite moving around constantly). Perhaps you could give me a generalized description of your whereabouts and your activity, so I have a little bit more context on your surroundings. And yes, like I mentioned, it’s technically not allowed to have private cameras facing the public space, but without enforcement, you might as well not have it (or actually incentivizes people to hide them).
I’m quite interested in your experience in Prague, and would love to hear more about it. From your description it seems cameras in Prague are very apparent, which I consider to be a good thing. Whereas in The Netherlands surveillance systems are often installed to be unobtrusive; including those installed by authorities or businesses (which are typically recording the store’s entrance; and as a “by-product” the public space; and dome-style cameras are increasingly placed in public retail areas too: mounted (typically in groups) on poles, or to exterior of buildings).
In Prague the line between private and public space seems blurred. Like, a footpath ends and the only way to continue is to walk over what appears to belong to a private business, of course full of cameras all over. I’m a bit further from the center, with a lot of rich people in big homes. They all have huge fences and walls around their gardens, often with cameras on top, so they can still spy on what happens outside their walls. Sometimes they’re so high up, you could think they want to know what happens in the entire street. Prague is one of the safest cities ever, so I really wonder how much of this is security and how much is curiosity. I mean, if you want to catch a burglar, you hang the camera down low so you can see their face.
Of course the city has traffic cameras and there’s police surveillance cameras in the center too, but at least you know what they’re for. The fact that any random person or business can film you is more worrying imo.
In NL, I’m staying in the North. I walk a lot. Instead of cameras, there are many curious people staring out of their windows :)
Ah okay, then I understand it’s quite a contrast compared to the situation in Prague. My guess would be the cameras act as a deterrent, and may be used to alert if activity is detected near the fence. Community members (typically home and/or business owners) increasingly contribute to local surveillance initiatives as well; for neighborhoods a homeowner association (HOA) may lead its members to collaboratively surveil their neighborhood with privately owned cameras. This can also be seen in some shopping centers or industrial areas here in The Netherlands, while home surveillance is typically centered around monitoring front doors (including doorbell cameras) and driveways (typically mounted on garages).
Traffic cameras are increasingly used by police too, similar to footage from (cloud connected) consumer cameras, and cameras operated by businesses or public organizations. All these seemingly separate systems are becoming increasingly interconnected, and that to me is pure nightmare fuel: the ability to be tracked from the streets into buildings, and from stationary objects into moving vehicles (also being monitored in real-time). I live up north too, and although I do agree it isn’t immediately obvious, I have noticed an upward trend regarding camera surveillance (especially surrounding transportation infrastructure: traffic cameras, cameras at transit stations, cameras in and surrounding public transportation vehicles, etc.). The nice thing here in The Netherlands is that you can often stare back at them haha :)
All sorts of new tower cameras popping up rapidly in my area. They look errily similar to a phone tower but much smaller. Single turret style rotational camera on top of a black tower.
Interesting, in what country is this? And is it in specific areas (like retail for example), or implemented more broadly?
I will take a photo for people to see. I think we need to know how to scrub exif data and do the best we can.
In retail locations yes, along highways, even bridges. I will take the photo and repost. So we can identify. United States.
That’d be great, I’m quite interested. :)
That was my little rant, please feel free to leave yours below in the comments; I’m somewhat desperate to hear it.
I’m in the US. Lots here is commercial. Cameras are all over in most stores. Everything bigger than mom & pop tier and even some of those. Long ago, that was kind of okay. They were closed circuit. The video went to a literal video tape to be overwritten in 1-3 days. Now? It’s unavoidable mass surveilance coupled to AI and cloud based analytics. The bigger chains run sophisticated facial recognition and AI behavior analysis.
Is that just for anti-theft? Oh no! These systems are used to analyze customer behavior. “Modern vision technologies are turning store video footage into powerful marketing insights”. Are you staring at a product, or looking away? Did you stop and pause near a display? Do you appear interested, or distracted? Did you pick up a product and return it to the shelf? Or place it in your cart? Did you read the label first? What route did you take through the store? These are all literally what modern video customer analytics do.
“This is where modern video analytics shines: it allows stores to map the entire in-store customer journey, from the moment someone enters to the moment they make a purchase (or leave without one). More advanced models add pose estimation, which looks at body posture and hand movement.”
It’s like somebody told Orwell 1984 was MUCH too mild.
Oh, did you want to opt out? Sure! You can. All you got to do is stop eating food!
but it eats at me on a daily basis.
Totally with you, sir, ma’am or other. I try to be an upstanding person. I try to help those around me. To be kind to others. To support my community and my neighbors. I just don’t want to live in a fucking constantly monitored world without a lick of privacy left. Where every action I have ever taken is recorded, analyzed, used against me. I believe this erodes democratic societies. These data streams are inevitably abused by tyranical ones. It’s a cancer on our societies. It harms all of us.
Same over here, with local chains increasingly forced to shut their doors (primarily as a result of the COVID pandemic, and the various developments ever since). And I completely agree, for most people it’s physically an unnoticeable change, but the change from: local, short-term, manual systems, to digitally transferable, long term, and automated ones, makes all the difference.
I’m quite confident most large chains were somewhat forced to have modern, GDPR-compliant systems in place (like Genetec for instance): undoubtedly allowing for integration of such analytics tools. And apart from that, they’ve had trackers in their carts (hidden in the locking-chain, or wheel-break assemblies) for as long as I can remember, and likely track user-location through app-use, or dedicated scanners too (for scanning products before you place them inside your cart); so I’m quite positive they utilize surveillance systems for that too.
Oh, did you want to opt out? Sure! You can. All you got to do is stop eating food!
I would just love to see those, that claim to be human, which are knowingly in support of these systems, try to justify the ethical ramifications in that statement alone. Which is “just” restricted to grocery shopping for now, but if the current trend continues, you’ll effectively become a prisoner to your own home. And quite rapidly so, if Europol’s ambitions to protect citizens from hypothetical adversary (kamikaze) drones, by use of drone swarms, atmospheric satellites and microphone meshes, becomes reality.
It’s an insane timeline we’re living in, and it’s so easy to give up all faith; but perhaps that is exactly what they want us to do. For us to feel powerless, and believing we are incapable of making a relevant change. I share the same ambitions as you, and I believe most human beings do naturally; but it’s becoming increasingly difficult when you have principles to stick by. I’ve already experienced this by transitioning away from big-tech platforms, and I would absolutely hate this translating into the physical world.
if the current trend continues, you’ll effectively become a prisoner to your own home
Same feeling for me. It’s oppressive AF. It feels inescapable, relentlessly expanding. I don’t want to be a hermit! If it’s not a store, it’s a rando who takes a selfie in a restaurant and you’re at the next table. Or at any kind of public event. Photo u/l’ed to their IG or FB. Then machine learning models spool up to wring out every possible inference. Those inferences can reveal so much more than most ppl understand.
Your categorization is on the money, “unnoticeable change”. It is the same on the tip top surface between their parents film camera photos, and their IG. But below that is a whole new world of capability.
Culture changes. Laws change. Tech possibilities change. But data is forever! We can never know how today’s data may be abused tomorrow, by who, and against who. We’re seeing data of people’s past lives weaponized against ppl, more and more often.
It also has psychologic effects. People are less willing to change their personal views, when their whole past is discoverable. That leads to more polarized societies over time.
Yeah, they might as well start wearing body-cams… oh wait, we have that, it’s called a “smart” pin; and police are also increasingly using smartphones to record and upload evidence; quirky, isn’t it? The difference is night and day, especially between analog and modern smartphones: always within reach, effectively without storage limitation, and uploaded within a moment’s notice (boldly assuming the device’s OS, or apps with media access don’t analyze device contents, without the user’s explicit consent).
There’s technically no reason to be selective with moments being captured, and as a result nearly any moment classifies. Often without realizing a recording is a memory cue at best, and poorly captures the emotion you felt in the moment; or rather didn’t, as you were too preoccupied viewing it through a lens. I simply can’t wait until spy… I mean “smart” glasses become mainstream; and people literally experience most of their lives through a lens.
It sometimes surprises me how easily people adopted the concept, of maintaining an aptly named “profile” on one’s self, and are continuing to refine the profile, over a span of decades at this point; and seemingly have no issues with this profile, directly relating to them as a person. I’m sure most algorithms or AI “assistants”, know their users better than they know themselves, and is actively being exploited for advertising, political campaigning, and trapping users in echo chambers; it’s really no wonder society is as polarized: it seems to be by design.
it’s really no wonder society is as polarized: it seems to be by design.
For sure. And not in a conspiracy-theory kind of way! Facebook ex-employees testified to the US Congress, said exactly that. FB amplify the most divisive content on purpose. That is the most powerful emotion, to make people engage. Other employee whistleblowers talked to the WSJ about “The Outrage Algorithm”. And there’s a whole book, “The Chaos Machine” about that.
Polarization drives maximum engagement. Right up until society rips itself apart. And then it’s too late.
